Today seems to be the day for a certain topic, and since it is a topic near and not-so-dear to me, who am I to argue? This is one bandwagon I have no problems riding to the end.
Several things in my post, and in the posts I'm linking to, may be triggering. The things I'm going to talk about here are things I usually put under filter for that reason.
First, this post was on my FList this morning, linking to this post, which was inspired by this post, which later made an appearance linked in this post.
Somewhere in all of that, probably several times, was this link, which is extremely relevant to me, personally, and my own experiences.
The subject: rape, and attitudes on rape, especially male attitudes toward rape. Specifically, certain rape myths that all, in the end, point to the woman as having fault in her own rape, being at fault for what happened to her, and having all the responsibility for protecting herself against such an attack, while men have no responsibility to not act like sex lunatics. How no, not all men are rapists, but the ones who aren't have more responsibility to the women in their lives and to women in general than simply not being a rapist. Despite the attitude of one or two male individuals in the comments of
rachelmanija's post, yes, actually, it is part of your responsibility as a decent man and human being to educate other men on how not to rape a woman. Maybe you think this is something that should be rather obvious, and you're right. But, you know, there are guys too stupid or arrogant to understand that a kiss is not necessarily an invitation to more, and that no does not actually mean yes. Guys who either don't care what damage their behaviour causes, or who honestly do not understand what they're doing is wrong, and weird and horrible as that sounds.
But there is a certain level of cultural conditioning going on here. I'm going to repeat things said in those linked posts because they should be repeated, and repeated, over and over until people actually start paying attention.
There are definitely communities--and they may or may not be poverty-stricken communities, either--where the prevalent mode of thought is that a woman can be blamed for her own rape if she dressed a certain way, or had certain sexual behaviors (behaviors, I might add, that in men are considered normal and acceptable), or even certain non-sexual but still non-socially-acceptable behaviors. A woman who dares bring her rapist to court (as described in the essay in the last link) can expect to have her entire history picked apart and analyzed and every small infraction used as proof that she deserved what she got. That she "asked for it." Which is absolutely bullshit of the highest degree, but there you go.
One commenter in
rachelmanija has basically said if a woman gets raped, well, she should have chosen the people in her life better.
I was molested as a child. I was ten years old when my mother met and remarried my step-father. We moved into his house a week before the wedding, and he touched me for the first time before any vows were ever exchanged. I was a child, and while I knew what he had done was wrong, I also knew my mother was happy, and that I had never had any sort of father-figure in my life before this man. I was all too willing to accept what had happened so long as it didn't happen again and he would be my father. Also, I had no real concept that I, as a child, would really have any voice in the matter anyway. My mother was happy. My mother wanted him to adopt me, and thought by the time that came up there had been more instances of touching and I really didn't want him to adopt me, I didn't protest and even told the lawyer it was all right. My mother way happy, and she was an adult and if this was what she wanted... well, would she really even listen if I told her what was wrong? I thought no (and, unfortunately, later experience taught me that I really had been right in that assumption).
I don't remember how old I was the last time it happened, only that he was bolder than before, and I finally showed a response rather than try to ignore it; I screamed and stuggled. He backed away, sat down in his chair and said, in a very irritated voice "Oh, I didn't hurt you." I said: "Yes you did." I guess that was all he really needed to stop, was for me to actually tell him that he'd hurt me, even if the hurt wasn't physical. As long as I didn't fight, he accepted my attempts to ignore him as acceptance of what he was doing. I suppose in that way, I'm very lucky. He could have done more, he could have raped me outright, he could have been the type that my screams only excited him more.
This does not mean what I went through was less traumatic, or left less of an impression because it wasn't outright rape. That's why the essay on Not Rape is very personally relevant to me.
It's also why I say that asshole in comments on
rachelmanija's post has no fucking clue what he's talking about. How was I supposed to, at the age of ten years old, know that this man my mother had chosen for her new husband and someone I should be able to trust, would do something like that to me? At ten years old, how could I possibly understand that even if he made my mother happy, I had a right to tell her I was unhappy, and why? Could I have chosen my new step-father? Gods, I wish I could have. But even then, who can truly trust their judgement around deceptive people?
RAINN statistics: "Approximately 73% of rape victims know their assailants." Does this mean 73% of rape victims have shitty judgement about people?
At ten years old, did I deserve it because of some clothing or behavior? Did I ask for it because I didn't fight? He certainly seemed to think so, and I wonder very much and often if up until that point did he really think what he was doing was okay? Because I'm not his blood daughter, did that make it okay in his mind? I think that's true, too, because even after the touching stopped, other types of abuse didn't. Once, he found it necessary to tell me about a dream he allegedly had in which he and I had sex, and he told me it was okay because I wasn't his real daughter. I think I was sixteen at the time.
This is my personal experience. I also have experience at work in seeing the types of attitudes discussed in the essay: I literally cannot count the number of teenage girls I see having babies, and the fathers are men 20 years old and older. Why do these girls believe that a man could want anything from her other than sex? That's the cultural conditioning we women must face.
But guys, look, you've got responsibility here as well. You really, really do. No matter how civilized we think we are, there's still some extremely misogynistic views out there that are considered perfectly acceptable. I see it in my job, and especially with my co-worker's two sons, who very much have the street mentality of their girlfriends being their property. If they're together, then the girl's gotta put out because if she doesn't, she can't love her boyfriend. Sex = love, or at least that's what those types of guys want us to believe, and even if the girl consents to sex under those conditions, it's still a violation of her rights as a human being, to be made to believe that her only worth is as a sex toy. Husbands supposedly cannot rape wives, because obviously marriage means he owns her body and can do whatever he likes with her and it absolutely cannot be rape then, right? Women who wear short skirts and revealing tops, well obviously they want it, right? If a woman doesn't fight, then ovbiously she wants it, right, even if she's too drunk to fight. And hell, if she's drunk out of her mind then she deserves it for acting like such a slut. A woman agreed to do this, this and this, and it resulted in both of us being naked, so obviously the natural conclusion is intercourse, even if she said no to it earlier in the relationship or even earlier in the night.
Guys. Guys. And by guys, I do actually mean males and not just a general "people" type of guys. Men. These things are not true, and if you're a decent human being you know this. That's great. But it really is your responsibility to take things one step further, or two or three, and making sure your guy friends understand this as well. Because maybe you think they do, and they don't, and maybe one day you'll find yourself facing the accusation of a friend in a rape or sexual assault, and you'll want to protect him because he's you're friend and he's got to be an upstanding guy, right? What if he isn't? What if he fooled you? What if he subscribes to any of those beliefs above and actually thinks he did nothing wrong? How is he supposed to know any better if his friends never attempt to educate him, and stand beside him after committing such an act?
What if the woman he raped was your friend? Your sister? Your girlfriend or wife? Would that make it your responsibility? Then, I urge every man who reads this or any of the other messages out there: think of every woman as your sister. Because every woman is someone's sister, or wife, or girlfriend, and especially someone's daughter. She may not be yours right now, but someday she might be, and if your efforts now can stop that, isn't that enough reason to make educating your fellow men your responsibility?
Men Can Stop Rape.
Several things in my post, and in the posts I'm linking to, may be triggering. The things I'm going to talk about here are things I usually put under filter for that reason.
First, this post was on my FList this morning, linking to this post, which was inspired by this post, which later made an appearance linked in this post.
Somewhere in all of that, probably several times, was this link, which is extremely relevant to me, personally, and my own experiences.
The subject: rape, and attitudes on rape, especially male attitudes toward rape. Specifically, certain rape myths that all, in the end, point to the woman as having fault in her own rape, being at fault for what happened to her, and having all the responsibility for protecting herself against such an attack, while men have no responsibility to not act like sex lunatics. How no, not all men are rapists, but the ones who aren't have more responsibility to the women in their lives and to women in general than simply not being a rapist. Despite the attitude of one or two male individuals in the comments of
But there is a certain level of cultural conditioning going on here. I'm going to repeat things said in those linked posts because they should be repeated, and repeated, over and over until people actually start paying attention.
There are definitely communities--and they may or may not be poverty-stricken communities, either--where the prevalent mode of thought is that a woman can be blamed for her own rape if she dressed a certain way, or had certain sexual behaviors (behaviors, I might add, that in men are considered normal and acceptable), or even certain non-sexual but still non-socially-acceptable behaviors. A woman who dares bring her rapist to court (as described in the essay in the last link) can expect to have her entire history picked apart and analyzed and every small infraction used as proof that she deserved what she got. That she "asked for it." Which is absolutely bullshit of the highest degree, but there you go.
One commenter in
I was molested as a child. I was ten years old when my mother met and remarried my step-father. We moved into his house a week before the wedding, and he touched me for the first time before any vows were ever exchanged. I was a child, and while I knew what he had done was wrong, I also knew my mother was happy, and that I had never had any sort of father-figure in my life before this man. I was all too willing to accept what had happened so long as it didn't happen again and he would be my father. Also, I had no real concept that I, as a child, would really have any voice in the matter anyway. My mother was happy. My mother wanted him to adopt me, and thought by the time that came up there had been more instances of touching and I really didn't want him to adopt me, I didn't protest and even told the lawyer it was all right. My mother way happy, and she was an adult and if this was what she wanted... well, would she really even listen if I told her what was wrong? I thought no (and, unfortunately, later experience taught me that I really had been right in that assumption).
I don't remember how old I was the last time it happened, only that he was bolder than before, and I finally showed a response rather than try to ignore it; I screamed and stuggled. He backed away, sat down in his chair and said, in a very irritated voice "Oh, I didn't hurt you." I said: "Yes you did." I guess that was all he really needed to stop, was for me to actually tell him that he'd hurt me, even if the hurt wasn't physical. As long as I didn't fight, he accepted my attempts to ignore him as acceptance of what he was doing. I suppose in that way, I'm very lucky. He could have done more, he could have raped me outright, he could have been the type that my screams only excited him more.
This does not mean what I went through was less traumatic, or left less of an impression because it wasn't outright rape. That's why the essay on Not Rape is very personally relevant to me.
It's also why I say that asshole in comments on
RAINN statistics: "Approximately 73% of rape victims know their assailants." Does this mean 73% of rape victims have shitty judgement about people?
At ten years old, did I deserve it because of some clothing or behavior? Did I ask for it because I didn't fight? He certainly seemed to think so, and I wonder very much and often if up until that point did he really think what he was doing was okay? Because I'm not his blood daughter, did that make it okay in his mind? I think that's true, too, because even after the touching stopped, other types of abuse didn't. Once, he found it necessary to tell me about a dream he allegedly had in which he and I had sex, and he told me it was okay because I wasn't his real daughter. I think I was sixteen at the time.
This is my personal experience. I also have experience at work in seeing the types of attitudes discussed in the essay: I literally cannot count the number of teenage girls I see having babies, and the fathers are men 20 years old and older. Why do these girls believe that a man could want anything from her other than sex? That's the cultural conditioning we women must face.
But guys, look, you've got responsibility here as well. You really, really do. No matter how civilized we think we are, there's still some extremely misogynistic views out there that are considered perfectly acceptable. I see it in my job, and especially with my co-worker's two sons, who very much have the street mentality of their girlfriends being their property. If they're together, then the girl's gotta put out because if she doesn't, she can't love her boyfriend. Sex = love, or at least that's what those types of guys want us to believe, and even if the girl consents to sex under those conditions, it's still a violation of her rights as a human being, to be made to believe that her only worth is as a sex toy. Husbands supposedly cannot rape wives, because obviously marriage means he owns her body and can do whatever he likes with her and it absolutely cannot be rape then, right? Women who wear short skirts and revealing tops, well obviously they want it, right? If a woman doesn't fight, then ovbiously she wants it, right, even if she's too drunk to fight. And hell, if she's drunk out of her mind then she deserves it for acting like such a slut. A woman agreed to do this, this and this, and it resulted in both of us being naked, so obviously the natural conclusion is intercourse, even if she said no to it earlier in the relationship or even earlier in the night.
Guys. Guys. And by guys, I do actually mean males and not just a general "people" type of guys. Men. These things are not true, and if you're a decent human being you know this. That's great. But it really is your responsibility to take things one step further, or two or three, and making sure your guy friends understand this as well. Because maybe you think they do, and they don't, and maybe one day you'll find yourself facing the accusation of a friend in a rape or sexual assault, and you'll want to protect him because he's you're friend and he's got to be an upstanding guy, right? What if he isn't? What if he fooled you? What if he subscribes to any of those beliefs above and actually thinks he did nothing wrong? How is he supposed to know any better if his friends never attempt to educate him, and stand beside him after committing such an act?
What if the woman he raped was your friend? Your sister? Your girlfriend or wife? Would that make it your responsibility? Then, I urge every man who reads this or any of the other messages out there: think of every woman as your sister. Because every woman is someone's sister, or wife, or girlfriend, and especially someone's daughter. She may not be yours right now, but someday she might be, and if your efforts now can stop that, isn't that enough reason to make educating your fellow men your responsibility?
Men Can Stop Rape.


Comments
Is it all right if I link to this post?
I don't really want to ramble, but misogyny is a behaviour commonly accepted here, as unconscious as it may seem. There are people I know personally who probably need a good mental whooping for what they've done to women. While I admit there's a good load of people out here, people who've looked out for me and other naive, helpless or small girls, there is a bigger amount of assholes who will always objectify us and treat us in undignified ways.
But, I do have to say something: Sometimes, this type of behaviour does not stem from one sex alone and this seems to be the case where I live. The common belief that men can do whatever the fuck they want because they are men seems to permeate our cultural values; and, quite frankly, I think it's so very wrong and depressing that kids are being raised to think these ideals are okay.
It isn't.
Men aren't the only ones who can make a difference. Everyone can.
Thank you for posting this. ♥
These particular men aren't bad men, they just don't stop to think that just maybe they have a responsibility too, not only to conduct themselves as decent human beings, and not even only to teach their sons how to properly treat a woman, but to reach out to other men in their community as well.
(No more lecturing from me.)
Actually, all of this was rather timely. There is a group of men in my community who are doing a... sort of a "Walk for the Cure" thing, only for rape awareness, and for educating other men and teenage boys. I don't know much about it right now, I only saw a flier in a public place where I unfortunately didn't have the time to sit and read the entire thing, but I plan to take the time next I'm there (it was at the gym I'm attending, actually).
The universe is speaking to me again, I guess.
And yeah, it does that.
Also, you couldn't mind putting it under a cut, would you? It kind of takes up a lot of space on my flist.
However, I'm a bit confused by this: This is my personal experience. I also have experience at work in seeing the types of attitudes discussed in the essay: I literally cannot count the number of teenage girls I see having babies, and the fathers are men 20 years old and older. Why do these girls believe that a man could want anything from her other than sex? That's the cultural conditioning we women must face.
Do you mean that older men can only ever be interested in a younger woman just for sex, or am I just getting really confused...?
There's also a difference between and eighteen or even a nineteen year old who has been dating his girlfriend since he was also a minor, and a twenty year old or older man having sex with a thirteen year old.
What does a thirteen year old girl have to offer a grown man other than sex? Why does a thirteen year old girl even think she should have sex with a man twice her age or older? How can a girl that age truly understand all of the consequences her actions have for her body and her spirit?
The worst part is that in the course of my job, I see these situations more times than I'd like to in a single month. If I were the mother of a girl under the age of sixteen, and she got pregnant by a man old enough to be her father, you can bet I'd have his ass in jail, not trying to cajole him to come to the hospital to sign a birth certificate (that's what I do, by the way, birth certificates for newborn babies).
/babble
I read an article a few years ago about teenage pregnancy in the US, and the demographics of it, and so on and so forth. And one thing that stuck out to me, hugely, was that a majority of babies born to girls under 16 were fathered by men over 21.
The article pointed out that maybe, when trying to figure out what to do about teen pregnancy, we should focus on what the hell all those adult men are doing having sex with underage girls. That maybe the problem was not, as so many educational programs assume, with the teenaged mothers.
I was not in any way laying all the blame on the teenage mothers, the men are absolutely as much, if not more, to blame for these situations. Really, I'm just trying to say that to me it seems an obvious point that the only thing these girls can offer to these men is sex, and I, personally, cannot believe that a grown man could ever seriously love a girl as young as thirteen. The girls who believe a twenty-five year old man loves them are incredibly naive.
And, considering that I see underage mothers in the hospital all the time, and see them up here alone with no family, my other question is: where the hell are these girls' mothers? Fathers? Brother? Aunts, uncles, any adult with the responsibility to look after these girls? Why haven't they reported this man for statutory rape?
I would like to be able to pull one of these men aside one day and ask him just the question you asked; what the hell did you want with a girl that young?
You know, I think I'm going to go talk to my supervisor right now and see if I'm legally required to report these men, and if not, what would happened if I did start to report them (I'll bet you would be absolutely apalled to know that I'm pretty certain our hospital's administration would demand that we not report them, because it makes the patients unhappy).
Edited at 2009-06-16 07:47 pm (UTC)
And, to be honest, while I don't have the moral objection to older man/younger woman as I do with grown person/teenager ... I've also never seen one of those relationships that worked. The man has always been far too controlling, the woman far too meek. I'm sure there are those types of relationships that work, but--like "open" relationships--I've never seen one and can't imagine how it would.
Girls can be incredibly naive, and we need to educate them, and stand by them as they face the consequences that are inevitable when all our education can't stand in the face of their socializing and naivete. Boys can be incredibly insensitive, though, and they also need to be educated ... and need to face consequences as well. And yes, as boys, we should stand by them as they face those consequences, but the consequences they face basically have to be manufactured by us... a girl can face pregnancy, which is a natural consequence. Boys? Don't have natural consequences, and it gets worse when those boys grow into men who have never had to face what a girl does; after all, if he doesn't want to be a parent, all he has to do is walk away.
I think I started to babble and my words don't really have anything to do with what we were initially talking about. ^_^** Sorry!
I was, I think, both lucky and perhaps abnormally firm and clear on the personality type that I wanted. And perhaps I was abnormally "mature"; my sire had been emotionally abusive, sometimes physically abusive, to my mom for... as long as I can remember. I had to grow up in certain emotional ways because when I was a pre-teen, after the time he tried to strangle my mom... I became more of an ally-in-dysfunction to my mom than a daughter, I think. By the time I was 15+, boys my age were really annoying to me most of the time.
My sire tried to emotionally abuse me... once. Into breaking up with the guy who I later married. The logic went: "If you love him you'll realize this is just a crush and stop leading him on so that he won't be hurt when you stop loving him." The enormity of that sin makes me more angry every day that he is wrong.
And perhaps my spouse was/is abnormally able to support me rather than control me. He had financial reserves that let me finish college (Bachelor's in English, minoring in Women's Studies), and let me be a stay-at-home author/editor. I have probably leaned on him more than maybe I "should," but if I'd said, "Y'know, I want to go out and get a job," he'd have said, "Okay. Where are you applying to?" He'd probably still say that, though I think he'd rather that I worked on the writing more. (He likes to read, as do I...)
To add irony to the universe... Whilst I was mooning about My Guy, before I moved up here, my mom would say things like, "Yes, yes, he's wonderful." And I'd say, "Mine!" And she'd say, "He's too young for me!" Well, after I got married, she FINALLY got a divorce. I danced. And a while after that... She called me up and asked if it was okay that she'd found This Guy of her own -- especially since he was 16 years younger than she was. (And a year younger than my spouse!) I told her I'd be a howling hypocrite to object, but if he hurt her I was going to do something violent to him.
Anyway... It is possible for an age-gap relationship to work out. It really is. But I think it takes things that... aren't usually taught. The younger partner has to really, really know herself (or himself), and know her boundaries. The older partner has to really respect those boundaries and help support things that will let the younger partner grow, as well as potentially be a stable and safe "rock" when growing up causes emotional upheavals. And not be pushy. There has to be really good communication in place. And shared interests, things to talk about, places where the worldview overlaps. We're both geeky types, more interested in SF&F than sports or shopping or whatever it is that 17-year-old high school graduates are supposed to be into.
I will try not to babble more about this. Just... One time, before we were married, my irregular period was really late showing up, and what he said was, "What would you want to do?" And I said, "Keep it." And he said, "Okay" and hugged me. And I think that if I'd said I wanted an abortion, he'd have done the same thing. But he asked me first, rather than saying what he wanted. Because he's like that.)
(Oh, and just so's it's clear -- I am totally not condoning users who prey upon vulnerable women and girls. Not. NOT. I know full well that me trying to have an adult relationship with someone would've been excessively problematic at 13. And that's with me being perhaps excessively mature for my age. Someone who seeks out kids like that is skeevy at best.)
Second: It really is good to know there are older man/younger woman relationships that DO work. But it sounds like you're very right that the reason yours does is because you and he are both extraordinary people both in your knowledge of yourself and his willingness to accept that and respect you and your boundaries.
The boundaries of abuse of any kind and their strain on relationships--specifically because men may or may not understand what they're getting themselves into when entering a relationship with a previously abused woman, and vice versa--is something I've thought a lot about, for obvious reasons. I'm very, very glad you were able to find someone who not only deals with those boundaries well, but respects them on a daily basis.
I'm glad to be an exception! (For, well, more reasons than one. *grin*) And yes, I believe that my spouse is really exceptional. I hadn't had a lot of experience with him, but... A couple of really pushy guys -- one in his mid-20s, I think -- had already managed to make some romantic headway with me, and then pushed too hard, and I dug in my heels, and, happily, that was that. But with him, I did the majority of the "chasing" until it got to be mutual. O:>
The boundaries of abuse of any kind and their strain on relationships
So, so, so very true. And I had, well, "abuse lite." Toxic and horrible as it was, it "wasn't that bad" compared to what it could've been. I'm very glad that my fellow is able to cope, and able to listen when I vent. (Because in my situation, pretending that everything was "fine" and "normal" was a large part of the toxic, and it's usually toxic for me to keep silent when the subject comes up.)
Thank you for tolerating me poking my nose into your journal!
Oh, no problem at all! It's always nice to meet new people. Even if the meeting is over an unpleasant subject.
Speaking of, I've been thinking about writing up a post about the boundaries abuse victims have and how it can affect their relationships. Would you mind if I mention your story as a success in my post? :)
SycophantGirl."It was when I turned 18, said, "Oh, by the way, I'm moving 2000 miles away to live with this guy," that he turned his emotional manipulation/abuse on me. (And if I nurse my fury close... It's because I know that my sire is very good at manipulation (he could sell ice to Eskimos), and it's dangerous to forget, to be tempted to take anything he says at face value. If he said there was air outside, I'd watch carefully out the window for a while before opening any doors, lest the vacuum suck me out.)
And thank you for allowing me to use your story. :) I don't know when that post will go up, but I can alert you when it does.
When I was really little, and was on the "winning" side (because I knew no better, and because anything my mom said "no" to, he'd say "yes" so what else is a brat to think?), I would sneak around to listen to him scold her. When I was older, it just made me... Upset.
Thank you for sharing that with me. To know my post was one of the ones that helped bring that about makes it worth it.
I guess I am one of those simpletons who thought responsibilty was based on common sense --- not something easily diverted to someone else (especially a victim of rape) because of attire, sexual history, or attitudes.
But keep in mind that for every idiotic "man" that assigns the blame of a rape on a woman, there are many more of us who have our heads screwed on right.
I know you do. The point is, though, that those of you who do, have a responsibility to do what you can to educate the men who don't. Yes, we women have a responsibility to educate ourselves, to try to use our best judgment, to educate our daughters and sisters... but a good many people seem to believe only women have a responsibility to actively educate, while the only responsibility men have is to simply not be rapists. Which is not true, and completely unfair.